Response added on 20 September 2008 at 11:19 from angela
Is this where the live web chat will be? Do you think people will need to have read the book before coming here to chat about their Faith?
Response added on 20 September 2008 at 11:31 from Graham Kings
Hi Angela, yes this is where the web chat will be.
On this Foreword page or any of the other chapter pages.
You don't need to have read the book to post comments.
It may help to see the art and poetry and illustrations in the chapters on this site. Reading the book will also help of course, including supporting the children of nomads in northern Kenya (see left margin, Adano Fund of CMS).
Graham
Response added on 20 September 2008 at 12:03 from angela
Well, it has just gone 12 noon. So Graham, let's pray that yor new web venture will be a good channel for helping people grow in faith.
I can't promise to be here in 2031 as it said in one article about this, but I will try and get here often.
God Bless
Response added on 20 September 2008 at 12:06 from Graham Kings
Thanks, Angela. My palm pilot only goes up to 2031, so that is why the article mentioned that year! Let's see how long this will continue on Saturdays. God bless.
Response added on 20 September 2008 at 12:16 from angela
Bringing this area back to more of a discussion about the forward I wanted to comment about how people can and do feel out of place in a church. Sometimes we don't realise that something so familiar to us is so alien to someone else.
I go to a URC and have very simple services. When we attend a joint service each month with the Anglicans it is always very different to what we are used to. At first I found all the words and different spoken sections a bit bewildering. I didn't know which book we were using next. Now I am more used to it, but I find that there is never enough time to really think about what is being said, and never said with any expression. It is like a race to chant off all the words like speaking robots.
So, if more people are going to come to church we need to think about how they will feel accepted and fit in.
Response added on 20 September 2008 at 12:22 from Graham Kings
Thanks, Angela. Yes it can be a culture shock to enter a church, or a church of a different tradition from the one we are used to.
It helps if the leader of the service imagines that there may be new people that Sunday and provides links to what is happening in the service, and which book to use.
Leading of services, I think, should be dynamic and not boring. Liturgy can be led well, and the Liturgical Commission of the C of E has a new web site 'Transforming Worship', with lots of idea for this.
Type into google: www.transformingworship.org.uk
We had a Liturgical Commission meeting at Ridley Hall, Cambridge last Monday with singer/songwriters including Graham Kendrick, which was part of this Transforming Worship project. Graham
Response added on 20 September 2008 at 12:30 from angela
I'll take a look at that web site later.
One thing I do like about all the liturgy is when I stop and think that Anglicans right across the country are reading the same or similar passages at the same time. It realy makes me think of a much bigger body of people with a common goal. It helps especially in a smaller congregation to know that you are part of a much bigger gathering.
Response added on 20 September 2008 at 12:35 from Graham Kings
Yes, that is what I appreciate too. The readings set for each Sunday and during the week too - form the lectionary.
There is a Common Lectionary which is used by many denominations, URC, Methodist, Roman Catholic and Anglican.
Sometimes it is really helpful to have a free style, more spontaneous service, with a general shape to it. So not every service need be a set liturgy.
Freedom within a general shape is vibrant.
Have a look too at the wonderful web site www.rejesus.co.uk/spirituality which has daily visual prayer with suggestions.
Graham
Response added on 20 September 2008 at 12:44 from angela
Another useful advantage of the lectionary for our chuch is continuity. Our minister is a 25% minister and we have many services lead by other ministers or lay preachers.
So, it is always good for the pulpit supply secretary to offer the theme/readings.
Response added on 20 September 2008 at 12:48 from Graham Kings
Thanks, Angela. Yes, and the lectionary prevents preachers merely preaching on their favourite texts. It brings up some difficult passages which are all part of God's Word and means that preachers have to engage with the parts they might not wish to reach - not quite the Heineken advert, but you get the idea...
Response added on 20 September 2008 at 12:50 from angela
Graham,
Already on one Saturday session and in the comments made under other chapter headings are many website addresses.
Perhaps you might think about adding a useful website link to your web page.
Well, your first hour is nearly up. Thanks for your time. Let's hope that more people will join in over the coming weeks.
I guess I ought to get myself to a bookstore soon too!
Response added on 20 September 2008 at 12:55 from Graham Kings
Thanks, Angela. Or you could order books on the web - as well as in a bookshop. BTW, the URC bookshop online, has a companion to the Revised Common Lectionary here:
http://books.urc2.org.uk/item.asp?ItemID=211
Yes, I reckon we need to add helpful links to this site. At the end of 'Signs and Seasons', there is a section called 'Further Resources for your Christian Journey, which has suggestions: To read (books); to consider (web site addresses); and to do (actions).
Enjoy the rest of Saturday.
People can add comments on this site at any time - it does not have to be between 12.00 noon and 1.00pm on a Saturday - and I will try to respond to them when I see them.
Graham
Response added on 27 September 2008 at 12:39 from angela
I'm back from decorating the church, it now looks ready for a pagan ritual. Actually, joking aside, it looks lovely. I was hoping to see others might have found this web space by now. Are you disappointed?
Response added on 27 September 2008 at 12:44 from Graham Kings
Hi Angela, it would be good if some more people commented - but then, on websites generally, a lot of people tend to listen in quietly. Let's see how it develops.
What chapter did you turn to first when the book arrived, and why?
Response added on 27 September 2008 at 12:48 from angela
I skimmed through the whole book first because I had the luxury of some time to myself, but then I did read suffering and lent again. Why? because some very good church friends have a son with leukaemia at the moment, and life never seems fair. Plus it is a questions that non believers often ask over and over. If God exists why all the suffering.
Response added on 27 September 2008 at 12:57 from Graham Kings
Thanks, Angela. Yes, personal friendships which involve coming close to long term suffering and questions from people who do not yet believe evoke many responses.
That is why I found Jonathan Clarke's sculpture of Christ Blessing the Children so powerful - in chapter 4 Suffering -Lent.
A son of a young couple who live in the parish died at the age of 3 months and they wanted a memorial to him in church. I asked Jonathan to meet with them and he designed the lectern 'Christ blessing the children'.
It came out of suffering and angst and, with Christ's outstreched arms, hints at the cross - the focus of innocent suffering.
Response added on 27 September 2008 at 13:14 from angela
I really do not know how people cope with such suffering when they don't have a faith. Whenever I've been through difficult times it has been my faith that has kept me going. My nephew would not even come into church when my son got baptised, because he does not believe. I always ask him how he can make sense of being alive if he doesn't believe. It will be good to see how this site develops. I would really love to see a place where we can share thoughts that have emerged from "Signs and Seasons".
Response added on 04 October 2008 at 12:14 from angela
Hi
Have you had a good week? How are the sales of Signs and Seasons going? Still looking forward to more people joining in here.
Response added on 04 October 2008 at 12:20 from Graham Kings
Hi Angela. Yes, had a very good week - Wednesday and Thursday at a retreat centre in Derbyshire considering liturgies for communion when children are present. This was part of the Liturgical Commission's meeting this week. It is amazing how writing prayers which relate to children focuses the theology of the prayers!
At St Mary's Islington, we currently have a sermon series on 'Questions Children Ask' and tomorrow is 'If God loves people why did he punish the Egyptians?' Quite a task...
Response added on 04 October 2008 at 12:30 from angela
A task indeed to put 10 plagues into one sermon. Let alone to explain, the why of it all.
We have our joint URC/Anglican communion service tomorrow. 1st Sunday in the month. It is at our URC church, so hardly any spoken words, well compared to when we go over to the Anglican church.
I like the idea of sermons based on what children ask.
We have an event on Monday night this week, where we are all meeting for a shared meal and then asking all the questions you ever wanted to ask before.
Response added on 04 October 2008 at 12:33 from Graham Kings
Thanks, Angela. What questions are you thinking of asking on Monday night, then? Some questions - eg 'is brown square?' - are unanswerable because they confuse different categories: however, I don't suggest you try that one...
Response added on 04 October 2008 at 12:45 from angela
I have been joining in another internet forum set up for the URC vison4life series. On that forum we have been discussing the role of the Holy Spirit. So, I would like to raise some thought provoking question in this area. I've been at this church for about 16 months now and I do not really know about how they feel about certain topics. Although, I have to admit the question is not yet formulated.
Response added on 04 October 2008 at 12:54 from Graham Kings
One of my favourite books on the Holy Spirit, which has influenced me a lot, is John V Taylor's 'The Go-Between God: The Holy Spirit and The Christian Mission' (SCM, 1972). I go back to it again and again. Worth getting and pondering.
He was General Secretary of the Church Mission Society and then Bishop of Winchester.
Response added on 04 October 2008 at 13:00 from angela
I like your analogy on page 59 and the upturned office, but not totally sure I understood why you said, "Those who try to shut the windows, beware".
If the windows get shut then The Holy Spirit will find another way in.
I also like the bit about being full, but leaking!
Well, hope you have a good week. I need to rush off now and get a few thing sorted in the home.
Response added on 11 October 2008 at 12:06 from Graham Kings
Thanks, Angela, for your final comment last Saturday. You are quite right, the Holy Spirit cannot be kept out or bottled, but some people attempt to quench the Holy Spirit (see 1 Thessalonians 5:19 and Acts 7:51).
Response added on 11 October 2008 at 12:12 from Graham Kings
Two new items of news about the book this week:
The Church Mission Society has put a video on YouTube of the book launch and of the 'Oxford to Cambridge with a Camel' walk in 1999, which created the Adano Fund.
It is called 'Creativity for Kenya: Oxford to Cambridge with a Camel' and can be seen on the Signs and Seasons home page, in the left margin, or on YouTube (search for the title).
The Times has published today (11 Oct) my article 'Living in time with the rhythm of the Church's year' (p. 71).
Click here to add your comments relating to this chapter
Response added on 03 September 2008 at 07:07 from andre
All beginnings must start somewhere. Here are a few thoughts from a closet puritan.
The Bespoke Soul
Candles do not a Christian make,
nor do brocaded vestments.
Incense does not a Christian make,
nor do routinely offered gestures.
Piety does not a Christian make;
Are not Buddhists, Muslims and Hindus pious?
Nor does ritual a Christian make;
living is cluttered with ceremony,
both ancient and modern.
Music does not a Christian make,
whether it be voices, bells, chimes or organs.
Tradition does not a Christian make,
it merely explains a social habit.
When all the trappings are discarded,
what remains to prove our spiritual condition?
Three simple things are in Gods gift,
and to know them is to know our measure:
That trinity comes of open Faith in His sacrifice,
it comes of honest Hope in Loves redemption,
and it comes of Love given for Faiths eternal validation.
Andr Hattingh
Response added on 04 September 2008 at 14:09 from Graham Kings
Thanks, Andr, for your poem which I enjoyed. It seems to echo 1 Corinthians 13 in both your negative first part and in your simple 'faith, hope and love' summary.
A few thoughts:
1. Is there not a difference between rhythm and ritual?
2. My chapter on Good Friday explores the metaphors of substitution, victory through the absorption of sin, and ransom concerning the cross of Christ.
3. I see you are from Bloemfontein Cathedral: wasn't JRR Tolkien baptised there?
Response added on 04 September 2008 at 21:14 from tandsbowman
just wanting to offer my excitment at finding your poem, in side the racy words I found reflections of both my human angst and a sense of hunger for the things of God, in language that was fresh enough to read. thanks
Response added on 06 September 2008 at 12:17 from Graham Kings
Many thanks for your comment, tandsbowman. If you get the chance, reading Augustine's Confessions, is really worthwhile. This is a translation by Henry Chadwick.
http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/ReligionTheology/PhilosophyofReligion/~~/dmlldz11c2EmY2k9OTc4MDE5MjgzMzcyMw==
Click here to add your comments relating to this chapter
Foreword